We Can Do Hard Things

How to Stay In Love: Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody

Guest: Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn GrodyOctober 16, 2025

long-term marriage longevity social justice israel-palestine conflict communication styles impermanence advocacy introversion parenting civic responsibility

How to Stay In Love: Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody

Episode Summary

AI-generated · Mar 2026

AI-generated summary — may contain inaccuracies. Not a substitute for the full episode or professional advice.

Actors Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody offer a delightfully unvarnished glimpse into their 45-year marriage, sharing how they sustain love, commitment, and purpose through life's challenges. Known for their extensive careers in stage, film, and television, including Patinkin's roles in *The Princess Bride* and *Homeland* and Grody's Obie-winning theatrical work, they discuss their new Lemonada media podcast, *Don't Listen to Us*, and their shared dedication to social justice. The episode delves into the profound, often messy, realities of a deeply connected partnership and their perspectives on aging, activism, and the nature of love in a turbulent world.

👤 Who Should Listen

Couples navigating the complexities of long-term relationships and recurring arguments.
Individuals grappling with the process of aging, elderhood, and societal perceptions of growing older.
Anyone seeking inspiration for social advocacy and using their voice to speak out against injustice.
People interested in balancing different communication styles, particularly introverts and extroverts in personal and professional relationships.
Parents reflecting on raising children and instilling values of empathy, social responsibility, and common humanity.
Listeners exploring the concept of impermanence and finding peace in the present moment amidst life's challenges.

🔑 Key Takeaways

1.Despite their status as 'marriage goals,' Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody emphasize that their 45-year marriage involves continuous struggle and messiness, having even separated twice (02:18).
2.Kathryn Grody's new one-woman show, *A Radical Rollicking Rumination on the Optimism of Staying Alive*, challenges cultural narratives around elderhood, with one 30-year-old audience member feeling it countered the idea that 'unless I have my place, my person, my profession, and my Botox account. By 35, my life is over' (09:37).
3.A core repetitive argument in their marriage revolves around Kathryn's 'excessive speaking' and fear of quiet, contrasting with Mandy's deep appreciation for 'negative space' and silence, a dynamic they actively work to balance (27:37, 29:08).
4.Mandy expresses concern over Kathryn's 'hysteria about time' and her tendency to 'pack in everything,' wishing she wouldn't feel 'the clock is moving that fast' (31:32).
5.Their Judaism profoundly informs their commitment to social justice and 'tinol lum' (healing the world one person at a time), compelling them to speak out against injustice, particularly regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict (63:06, 64:06).
6.Mandy makes a passionate plea to elders, stating, 'You've had a long life, you elders... use your voice' for those too frightened to speak, emphasizing that he has 'nothing to lose' and wishes to 'pay it back' by speaking his heart and mind (75:32, 76:18).
7.Kathryn posits that 'all suffering comes from us grasping, holding on to that which is impermanent,' advocating for being 'in the moment' and 'fully alive' (53:57, 54:19, 55:01).
8.Mandy offers a comforting thought from Oscar Hammerstein: 'as long as there's one person on earth who remembers you, it isn't over,' which guides his daily prayers and connection to others (58:02).

💡 Key Concepts Explained

The Brutalities of Intimacy

This phrase, mentioned by the hosts and embraced by the Patinkins, describes the challenging yet beautiful experience of profound vulnerability and being truly seen in a long-term relationship (03:19). It highlights that deep connection is not always easy but is a 'daring' and 'astonishing' journey of survival and thriving.

Negative Space

Drawing from his cousin's work in landscape architecture, Mandy Patinkin applies the concept of 'negative space' (what you leave empty) to communication and personal life, particularly in the context of introversion (29:08). It emphasizes the value and beauty of quiet, silence, and not feeling compelled to fill every conversational void, especially for those who need peace in their minds.

Tinol Lum

Kathryn Grody explains this Hebrew phrase as meaning 'seal the world' or 'heal the world' (64:06). It represents the belief in civic responsibility and participation to combat injustice 'one person at a time,' acting with kindness and standing up for common humanity wherever one sees a wrong, even when the task seems overwhelming.

⚡ Actionable Takeaways

→Consider incorporating a magnesium supplement, specifically 'Calm,' into your routine to alleviate leg cramps and improve sleep, as Mandy recommends based on his personal experience (14:00, 15:18).
→If you tend to be a more talkative partner, practice leaving space for quiet or for others to speak, especially those who take more time to formulate their thoughts (34:35).
→If you're an elder with financial stability, actively 'take up the slack' by using your voice to advocate for justice, as Mandy urges, for those who fear professional or personal repercussions (75:32, 76:18).
→Practice 'tinol lum' by actively seeking out injustice and standing up against it wherever you see it, and expanding social interactions beyond your usual circles to foster common humanity (64:06, 66:10).
→To counter the fear of time passing and clinging to impermanent things, focus on being fully present 'in the moment' rather than dwelling on the past or worrying excessively about the future (53:57, 54:19).
→Engage in daily practices of remembering loved ones and acquaintances by name, as Mandy does, to foster a sense of connection and combat feelings of isolation or being alone (58:02).
→If you find yourself in a different sleep cycle than your partner, find practical ways to support each other, such as preparing drinks or managing chores, to maintain connection and ease daily routines (15:18).

⏱ Timeline Breakdown

01:02The hosts introduce Mandy and Kathryn, highlighting their joy and commitment to marriage, parenting, and the planet, and their 'brutalities of intimacy' (03:19).

05:22Kathryn Grody discusses her new one-woman show, 'A Radical Rollicking Rumination on the Optimism of Staying Alive,' exploring elderhood.

09:10Kathryn shares how her play resonated with a 30-year-old, challenging the societal pressure to achieve specific life milestones by 35.

10:30Kathryn talks about becoming a dog owner despite not being a 'dog person,' reflecting on the nurturing aspects of raising children and caring for animals.

13:20Mandy offers a practical tip for aging: a magnesium supplement called 'Calm' to alleviate leg cramps.

15:18Kathryn describes her evening routine, which often involves sorting newspapers and hiding items from Mandy, who tends to throw them away.

17:15Mandy and Kathryn playfully argue about him throwing out her cherished John Leonard newspaper columns, illustrating a recurring relationship dynamic.

20:00Kathryn recounts first seeing Mandy in a 'Teen Angel' Seven Up commercial from 1969/70, before they ever met.

21:50Kathryn describes their first in-person encounter and her immediate realization that Mandy was 'her type,' despite her intention not to date actors.

27:37Kathryn and Mandy discuss one of their recurring arguments: her 'excessive speaking' and his desire for quiet, referencing the concept of 'negative space.'

31:32Mandy expresses concern over Kathryn's 'hysteria about time' and her tendency to try and 'pack in everything,' wishing for her to slow down.

36:00Kathryn acknowledges her struggle with filling quiet spaces and asks Mandy to work on expanding his social interactions.

39:40Glennon identifies with Kathryn's role, recognizing the 'service' of a talkative partner in keeping conversations flowing.

45:00Mandy and Kathryn reflect on the gifts they receive from each other's communication styles and creative expressions, including Mandy's Jukebox concert.

47:30The hosts discuss their preference for virtual connections over in-person meetings to maintain boundaries between work and real life, and to feel 'safer.'

50:10Mandy and Kathryn discuss the political implications of 'socialism' and the need for generosity and humane solutions in society.

52:30Kathryn discusses the challenge of 'holding on' to impermanent things and the suffering that arises from grasping.

56:00Mandy shares his personal ritual of walking, praying for vulnerable people, and his belief that 'energy never dies,' connecting with loved ones.

59:00Mandy quotes Shakespeare ('more things in heaven and earth') and Oscar Hammerstein ('as long as there's one person on earth who remembers you, it isn't over').

63:06Kathryn and Mandy detail how their Judaism informs their strong stance on the Israel-Palestine conflict, emphasizing justice and common humanity.

72:00Kathryn jokingly suggests that women running the world for 200 years might lead to better compromise and nurturing solutions.

75:32Mandy makes an emotional plea to elders to use their voices without fear to advocate for those who cannot speak for themselves.

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💬 Notable Quotes

“We have over the years survived and thrived through the brutalities of intimacy. It's a daring thing. It's an astonishing thing.”
— Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody

“All suffering comes from us grasping, holding on to that which is impermanent.”
— Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody

“As long as there's one person on earth who remembers you, it isn't over.”
— Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody

“You elders out there… take up the slack. Do it for those who are too frightened to speak for whatever reasons… use your voice. Speak your heart and your mind.”
— Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody